General

General - 2002~older 600/700 summit
General - Thoughts of the QRS
General - Want to replace the QRS
General - How does the XP trail kit feel for normal riding?
General - Opinion on shock wave vs. quick clicker?
General - Shockwave work with the clutch kit primary parts?

General - 2002~older 600/700 summit
Question)Hi Joe, I'm looking for 2 clutch kits for a few older summits. My daughter is riding a 2002 Summit 700 Sport (144 x 2 track). My bro in law has a 2002 Summit 600 Sport. I was wondering if you have any kind of clutch kit for these models (both non RER)? We do most of our riding in the 3000-6000 elevation. Please let me know if kit is available Thanks, MK.

Answer)In 2002 there were 2 sport models. 1]Summit 700 Sport. This model has the formula style secondary with the pretension spring and 3.75 diameter helix. The 2] Summit 700 Sport-R. The “R” model had “RER”. This is the HPV-27 secondary to which has a compression spring like all the newer models to today. This helix is 4.25 inches diameter. I only make kits for the HPV-27.

I did at one time make a kit for the formula secondary however the helix angles/pretensions I used quickly wore out buttons, even the hard racing buttons would wear quickly, so I dropped that kit. The RER secondary works excellent and this kit in a 700 will give grief to a stock clutch, stock engine MXZ or REV 800.

If you are really interested then have a look around the internet for a used RER (HPV-27) secondary and I can build you a kit. These secondaries can be found for anywhere from $40 to $125 dollars and in decent shape, usually only have to replace the forward black wear buttons prior to kit installation. Then the kit would come with primary spring, 3800 engagement, secondary spring and SMT helix.
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General - Thoughts of the QRS
Hi Joe, what do you think of that new QRS secondary? It looks unfriendly to work on but I see that Dalton has a whole whack of helixes for it already. Do the other bomber secondary springs work in it?
Thanks, Niel

Hi Niel. I would now put all secondary in a rating as such.
From "physical dimensions" "parts used/placed" "mechanical" best to worst... Paragon, QRS.......Yamaha roller, cat roller, t-i, HPV-27 roller Formula roller, Formula & Polaris button secondary. The QRS, the paragon, I would put a far stretch between those 2 secondary and the other secondaries.

Without getting into a long explanation, my observations are if a tuner puts another secondary on the XP sled they are going backwards. The QRS has the same capacity as any other clutch but all the other clutches do not have the same capacity as the QRS (except paragon, however limited to helix selection). There are 2 major premises that catch a pre-programmed/thinking-in-the-past-tuner off guard when calibrating a QRS, and sum that with an engine that is EPA certified = Challenge!

It will be a challenge no matter what secondary you put on it, nor primary clutch. The challenge is to shed your pre-programmed prejudices and calibrate by applying theory to raw data....not just pulling angles out of a hat and hoping they'll work. After getting to talk with some BRP techy's I have a deeper appreciation for why they have to engineer details on the sled which is beyond the lens we view from.
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General - Want to replace the QRS
Joe, I need a little help...I gots me a buddy who is dead set on running a t secondary on his 08 TNT that is stretched to a 136". I tried to talk him out of it and to just buy one of your kits but he is too stubborn. Think you might point me in the right direction? Any thoughts would be appreciated.
Thanks Mike

Mike...I have nothing against the t secondary itself, it's a wonderful secondary, and an efficient secondary however from my own personal testing with some x-country racers, there is a lack of "best" tuning parts, namely the helix and spring selection are limited. My opinion your buddy will have a result that may be better than stock in limited shift point areas thus stock may be better like upper midrange to top end mph's. Other than that the QRS "Mechanically" is a better secondary. There is limitations to the availability of t-helix's....there is nearly unlimited calibrations "Available" from after market with the QRS so someone will have a great kit that will be drop in and drive for the application.
cya, joey
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General - How does the XP trail kit feel for normal riding?
Question) After installing your 800XP clutch kit how will "normal" trail riding be? Trust your set up, just let me know how the sled will react.

Answer) For normal riding you’ll find a tighter connection between your throttle thumb tip and the track. The rpms at 65mph will be down around 6200 or about 3~400 less than stock, however flick the throttle and the engine quickly whacks 8150. Mileage is up on sustained throttle positions because of lower rpms and the feel is not squishy.
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General - Opinion on shock wave vs. quick clicker?
Scenario – You finished running up the road to the deep snow and need to re-calibrate the system to work best in the snow...Question – how long will it take you to adjust the helix angle? [go through the steps in your head and calculate the estimated time]
1] You stop the sled and shut the engine off. 2]Pop the side panel 3]You get your tool out and change, loosen off the knob and dial in a different helix angle. Reversing the steps, you lock the helix down again, Shut the side panel, Start the sled and haul the mail...about between 1~2 minutes fussing with it.

Quick clicker – 1] You stop the sled and shut the engine off. 2] Pop the side panel. 3]You get your thumb on the each of the 3 clicker knobs and push the clickers in and rotate the ramp angles. Reversing the steps, Shut the side panel, Start the sled and haul the mail...about between 1~2 minutes fussing with it.

Belt clamp
Helix angles change belt clamp forces. I would want an angle(s) to clamp the belt all the way to top ratio. If I change the angle, I change the belt clamp forces, lower belt clamp, higher belt clamp....whatever they may be.
Clicker numbers we know change belt clamp forces in the primary. Need the primary to push harder, lower the clicker. Need the push less hard, raise the clicker.
In the end I rather go by what Aaen says – Find the correct helix angle and tune the rpms at the primary clutch.

..note, there can be an over rev caused by the secondary with too large of helix angle and not enough spring force.

The shockwave is a neat design and I have thought of asking for being a distributor however I don't have time to devote to work it. I think its a fine product and glad nobody is copying it.
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General - Shockwave work with the clutch kit primary parts?

QUESTION)I bought a Shockwave helix. The helix angle on these is easily adjustable over a wide angular range. The helix ramps however are linear, as in providing a constant angle throughout the entire shift range.

I like all the benefits you mentioned that your kit offers; If I used my Shockwave helix (having only a straight angle) with the rest of your clutch kit (the grey Dalton primary spring, a pin weight of about 23g, and the purple secondary spring), would I achieve what the entire kit (with the QR20 helix) offers?

I’m now guessing that with some setting of the linear ramp Shockwave helix I could achieve one or more of the benefits your kit offers for part of the shift range, but at the expense of other areas.

By Google-ing on “QR20” I found some reference to it being a Dalton part number. At that time I did not understand that this was a custom helix you have them mfg for you, and I asked them what the angles are. They appropriately told me that it is a custom part and therefore do not give out specs. I understand that completely and wouldn't’t expect them or you to do so.

Can you help me understand what the outcome might be if I used the Shockwave with the rest of your kit?

ANSWER) The angles I make in the QR20 are not on Daltons product guide. I get into some tricky stuff with "stretching" the pitch of an angle. I understand their CAD program makes circles/angles so I get their programmer to change the resolution of curves to which lengthens or shortens the pitch of an angle along the curve. OR I'll get him to move the start point back (makes a lower angle) or move the start point forward (makes a steeper angle) or get the end point moved ahead .xxx inches or back .xxx inches and then it is not angles anymore, rather "curves"

I give example
My S9D drag race helix is an SMT (standard kit helix) with a lowered top .125 and move start point back .220 - so now what angle that is I don't know. I know it allows the engine to accelerate quick and have good mph in 500' drag. When I need to load the engine harder, I move the start point back only .200 or load harder then move .190...etc.

Consumer writes) I’m now guessing that with some setting of the linear ramp Shockwave helix I could achieve one or more of the benefits your kit offers for part of the shift range, but at the expense of other areas.

Joe writes) correct! This could be a scenario - to get the calibration to work with the SW, and get good top end, you would lower the SW angle right down to the lowest angle and you would get good top end mph however for suffering lack of hard acceleration in the low ratios.
You could increase the angle at the start of the shift to allow to push hard and accelerate but there is a certain point in the midrange to where the top end will suffer, mph increase will cease and be premature top out (equilibrium at a lower mph)

I like progressive angle helix that allows several applications through one helix with a variation of angles.
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